The IPA is gibberish and I can't read it. Why doesn't Wikipedia use a normal pronunciation key?
The IPA is the international standard for phonetic transcription, and therefore the Wikipedia standard as well. Many non-American and/or EFL-oriented dictionaries and pedagogical texts have adopted the IPA, and as a result, it is far less confusing for many people around the world than any alternative. It may be confusing in some aspects to some English speakers, but that is precisely because it is conceived with an international point of view. The sound of y in "yes" is spelled /j/ in the IPA, and this was chosen from German and several other languages which spell this sound j.
For English words, Wikipedia does use a "normal" pronunciation key. It is Help:Pronunciation respelling key, and may be used in addition to the IPA, enclosed in the {{respell}} template. See the opening sentences of Beijing, Cochineal, and Lepidoptera for a few examples. But even this is not without problems; for example, cum laude would be respelled kuum-LOW-day, but this could easily be misread as koom-LOH-day. English orthography is simply too inconsistent in regard to its correspondence to pronunciation, and therefore a completely intuitive respelling system is infeasible. This is why our respelling system must be used merely to augment the IPA, not to replace it.
Wikipedia deals with a vast number of topics from foreign languages, and many of these languages contain sounds that do not exist in English. In these cases, a respelling would be entirely inadequate. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation for further discussion.
The IPA should be specific to a particular national standard, and the national pronunciations should be listed separately.
Listing multiple national pronunciations after every Wikipedia entry word quickly becomes unwieldy, and listing only one leads to accusations of bias. Therefore, we use a system that aims at being pan-dialectal. Of course, if a particular dialect or local pronunciation is relevant to the topic, it may be listed in addition to the wider pronunciation, using {{IPA-all}} or {{IPA-endia}}.
The use of /r/ for the rhotic consonant is inaccurate. It should be /ɹ/ instead.
The English rhotic is pronounced in a wide variety of ways in accents of English around the world, and the goal of our diaphonemic system is to cover as many of them as possible. Moreover, where there is no phonological contrast to possibly cause confusion, using a more typographically recognizable letter for a sound represented by another symbol in the narrow IPA is totally within the confines of the IPA's principles (IPA Handbook, pp. 27–28). In fact, /r/ is arguably the more traditional IPA notation; not only is it used by most if not all dictionaries, but also in Le Maître Phonétique, the predecessor to the Journal of the IPA, which was written entirely in phonetic transcription, ⟨r⟩ was the norm for the English rhotic.
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Help:IPA/English is a reader-facing page intended for viewing by non-editors. Please prioritize their needs when adjusting its design, and move editor-facing elements to other pages.
This page was nominated for deletion on 1 March 2008. The result of the discussion was Keep.
Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Ugh, I HATE that Wiki uses this IPA crap. I don't know why they can't show pronunciations like the dictionary does. It's so much more intuitive that this gobbledygook. IPA was created by drunken sailors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.241.240.42 (talk) 20:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Most english words on wikipedia use respelling as well, take for example Victor Wembanyama. It has the gibberish, and then a spelled-out more understandable version. If you see an article that should have one of these, add it!
For a more drawn-out explanation, this talk page has a question just like this in the FAQ section. Coulomb1 (talk) 01:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Apologies if this is a well worn topic, but I’ve wondered why the IPA notation in many articles doesn’t link to an audible pronunciation. I don’t have an issue with the notation itself, but the vast majority of readers are likely interested in guidance on how the word sounds more than an explanation of the phonetic notation. I’m sure there are practical considerations to any integration, but it seems like it’s a lot more steps to get to hearing the word than it should be, and many readers won’t find a site like ipa-reader or won’t bother. 24.241.32.226 (talk) 15:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
One reason is that this key is supposed to be dialect-neutral, though that hasn't deterred transcriptions occasionally accompanying audio. WMF is to develop software that will enable instant generation of audio from IPA, but it doesn't seem active at the moment so it'll likely take years. Once that becomes available, we might ditch the key in favor of dialect-specific ones (or who knows what happens). Nardog (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 18 days ago8 comments5 people in discussion
A minor dispute on whether IPA-en should be included for this tennis player. I maintain that Gauff is a very unusual and non-intuitive name in the English-speaking world, but the other editor disagrees. We have IPA-en for Jessica Biel, Alicia Silverstone and Joe Biden, so why should her article be any different? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's the normal pronunciation for those who have "cot-caught merger" plus "father-bother merger"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see that User_talk:Fyunck(click) reinstated the referenced original guide /ˈɡɑːf/GAHF, which is just as well as it wasn't on my internal list of three distinct pronunciations. Bazza 7 (talk) 11:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I was replying to AnonMoos. /ɑː/ is indeed the vowel for those with father–bother and cot–caught mergers, but it's a non-option for a diaphonemic notation. We need what those without the mergers pronounce it (the LOT–CLOTH split is also potentially relevant here, but given the subject is American—from the South no less—we could assume its presence; see the note at the end of the "Key" section). Nardog (talk) 11:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Nardog: My apologies for not paying attention to your accurate indentation. And thanks for your concise and understandable explanation.Bazza 7 (talk) 11:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
From what I can tell, American speakers without the cot-caught merger pronounce the name as /ɡɔf/, not /ɡɑf/. This makes sense as it corresponds to the spelling. I have therefore changed the pronunciation guide to this. Referencing Gauff's own pronunciation is useless as she has a PALM-LOT-THOUGHT merged accent, so her /ɑ/ phoneme corresponds to three separate Wikipedia diaphonemes. Offa29 (talk) 13:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Distinction between /æ/ in "trap" and "bad"edit
Latest comment: 19 days ago7 comments5 people in discussion
The latter is extended in most accents I've heard, so surely should include : like in /ɑː/ and /iː/. I'm not seeing it on the table. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 12:21, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
OED shows /trap/ (Br), /træp/ (US); /bad/ (Br), /bæd/ (US)
So although the "a" may vary in sound between English variants, the same sound is used within a variant for "trap" and "bad". Bazza 7 (talk) 12:50, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Weird. To me they sound as different as /ɪ/ and /iː/. I'm not going to call into question anyone's linguistic credentials, but it's like someone's missing a trick somewhere. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:25, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Mac Dreamstate: Someone else might want to contribute here and provide some better references. I was, I confess, surprised by the sources. I think I know what you're alluding to; we might, from our seats on this side of the pond, respectfully call it a "drawl". Bazza 7 (talk) 14:12, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
It isn't a phonemic difference. A speaker's phonetic realizations might be transcribed as [træp] and [bæːd] but it's one phoneme, written /æ/. On the other hand, considering only my own (eastern US) speech, I don't see why, in contrast, the phonemes /ɑː/ and /iː/ are marked long. To me, the vowels in "beat" and "bead" differ in length in the same way as "bat" and "bad", so it isn't clear to me why the phoneme behind one pair would be explicitly marked long and the other one not. Perhaps there are enough examples of English around the world with long vowels in both "beat" and "bead" and short vowels in both "bat" and "bad" that it makes sense. Largoplazo (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is a phonemic distinction made in some accents of English: the Pronunciation of English ⟨a⟩#Bad–lad split. However this is not accounted for in the transcription system, presumably because it is not featured in most dictionaries. It is far from the only possible phonemic distinction omitted; cf. the horse-hoarse and fir-fur-fern distinctions in Scottish and Irish English. Offa29 (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
help, talk, english, learn, more, about, this, pagefor, requests, transcription, wikipedia, reference, desk, language, this, talk, page, discussing, improvements, english, page, text, under, text, click, here, start, topic, wikipedia, welcome, learn, edit, hel. Learn more about this pageFor requests for transcription see Wikipedia Reference desk Language This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the IPA English page Put new text under old text Click here to start a new topic New to Wikipedia Welcome Learn to edit get help Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if neededArchives Index 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27Auto archiving period 3 months Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated Please read recent comments look in the archives and review the FAQ before commenting view edit Frequently asked questions FAQ The IPA is gibberish and I can t read it Why doesn t Wikipedia use a normal pronunciation key The IPA is the international standard for phonetic transcription and therefore the Wikipedia standard as well Many non American and or EFL oriented dictionaries and pedagogical texts have adopted the IPA and as a result it is far less confusing for many people around the world than any alternative It may be confusing in some aspects to some English speakers but that is precisely because it is conceived with an international point of view The sound of y in yes is spelled j in the IPA and this was chosen from German and several other languages which spell this sound j For English words Wikipedia does use a normal pronunciation key It is Help Pronunciation respelling key and may be used in addition to the IPA enclosed in the respell template See the opening sentences of Beijing Cochineal and Lepidoptera for a few examples But even this is not without problems for example cum laude would be respelled kuum LOW day but this could easily be misread as koom LOH day English orthography is simply too inconsistent in regard to its correspondence to pronunciation and therefore a completely intuitive respelling system is infeasible This is why our respelling system must be used merely to augment the IPA not to replace it Wikipedia deals with a vast number of topics from foreign languages and many of these languages contain sounds that do not exist in English In these cases a respelling would be entirely inadequate See Wikipedia Manual of Style Pronunciation for further discussion The IPA should be specific to a particular national standard and the national pronunciations should be listed separately Listing multiple national pronunciations after every Wikipedia entry word quickly becomes unwieldy and listing only one leads to accusations of bias Therefore we use a system that aims at being pan dialectal Of course if a particular dialect or local pronunciation is relevant to the topic it may be listed in addition to the wider pronunciation using IPA all or IPA endia The use of r for the rhotic consonant is inaccurate It should be ɹ instead The English rhotic is pronounced in a wide variety of ways in accents of English around the world and the goal of our diaphonemic system is to cover as many of them as possible Moreover where there is no phonological contrast to possibly cause confusion using a more typographically recognizable letter for a sound represented by another symbol in the narrow IPA is totally within the confines of the IPA s principles IPA Handbook pp 27 28 In fact r is arguably the more traditional IPA notation not only is it used by most if not all dictionaries but also in Le Maitre Phonetique the predecessor to the Journal of the IPA which was written entirely in phonetic transcription r was the norm for the English rhotic This help page does not require a rating on Wikipedia s content assessment scale It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects Wikipedia Help High importanceThis page is within the scope of the Wikipedia Help Project a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia s help documentation for readers and contributors If you would like to participate please visit the project page where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks To browse help related resources see the Help Menu or Help Directory Or ask for help on your talk page and a volunteer will visit you there Wikipedia Help Wikipedia Help Project Template Wikipedia Help Project Help articlesHighThis page has been rated as High importance on the project s importance scale Languages Mid importanceLanguage portalThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Languages a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Wikipedia If you would like to participate please visit the project page where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks Languages Wikipedia WikiProject Languages Template WikiProject Languages language articlesMidThis page has been rated as Mid importance on the project s importance scale Linguistics PhoneticsLinguistics portalThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of linguistics on Wikipedia If you would like to participate please visit the project page where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks Linguistics Wikipedia WikiProject Linguistics Template WikiProject Linguistics Linguistics articlesThis page is supported by Phonetics Task Force Help IPA English is a reader facing page intended for viewing by non editors Please prioritize their needs when adjusting its design and move editor facing elements to other pages This page was nominated for deletion on 1 March 2008 The result of the discussion was Keep Contents 1 Indecipherable 2 Link embed ipa reader xyz 3 Coco Gauff 4 Distinction between ae in trap and bad Indecipherable edit Latest comment 1 month ago 3 comments 3 people in discussionUgh I HATE that Wiki uses this IPA crap I don t know why they can t show pronunciations like the dictionary does It s so much more intuitive that this gobbledygook IPA was created by drunken sailors Preceding unsigned comment added by 67 241 240 42 talk 20 16 16 December 2023 UTC Reply Most english words on wikipedia use respelling as well take for example Victor Wembanyama It has the gibberish and then a spelled out more understandable version If you see an article that should have one of these add it For a more drawn out explanation this talk page has a question just like this in the FAQ section Coulomb1 talk 01 56 29 January 2024 UTC Reply ˈnɒnsᵊns dɪs ˈɡɪberɪʃ ɪz ˈiːzi tuː riːd aend ˈdɛfɪnɪtli nɒt ˈsʌm8ɪŋ juː ˌɔːteˈmaetɪkᵊli skɪm ˈeʊve Local Potentate talk 09 10 9 February 2024 UTC ReplyLink embed ipa reader xyz edit Latest comment 3 months ago 2 comments 2 people in discussionApologies if this is a well worn topic but I ve wondered why the IPA notation in many articles doesn t link to an audible pronunciation I don t have an issue with the notation itself but the vast majority of readers are likely interested in guidance on how the word sounds more than an explanation of the phonetic notation I m sure there are practical considerations to any integration but it seems like it s a lot more steps to get to hearing the word than it should be and many readers won t find a site like ipa reader or won t bother 24 241 32 226 talk 15 16 17 December 2023 UTC Reply One reason is that this key is supposed to be dialect neutral though that hasn t deterred transcriptions occasionally accompanying audio WMF is to develop software that will enable instant generation of audio from IPA but it doesn t seem active at the moment so it ll likely take years Once that becomes available we might ditch the key in favor of dialect specific ones or who knows what happens Nardog talk 21 08 17 December 2023 UTC ReplyCoco Gauff edit Latest comment 18 days ago 8 comments 5 people in discussionA minor dispute on whether IPA en should be included for this tennis player I maintain that Gauff is a very unusual and non intuitive name in the English speaking world but the other editor disagrees We have IPA en for Jessica Biel Alicia Silverstone and Joe Biden so why should her article be any different Mac Dreamstate talk 21 08 14 February 2024 UTC Reply It s the normal pronunciation for those who have cot caught merger plus father bother merger AnonMoos talk 16 56 18 March 2024 UTC Reply AnonMoos But for those have neither merger like me it would be helpful Is it ɡ aʊ f ɡ ɔː f or ɡ ɒ f Bazza 7 talk 09 09 19 March 2024 UTC Reply This key is WP DIAPHONEMIC Nardog talk 10 14 19 March 2024 UTC Reply Nardog I m not sure how that s pertinent As discussed elsewhere by Mac Dreamstate my British English stumbled on that name ɡ aʊ f gowf came first then ɡ ɔː f gawf then ɡ ɒ f gof I see that User talk Fyunck click reinstated the referenced original guide ˈ ɡ ɑː f GAHF which is just as well as it wasn t on my internal list of three distinct pronunciations Bazza 7 talk 11 25 19 March 2024 UTC ReplyI was replying to AnonMoos ɑː is indeed the vowel for those with father bother and cot caught mergers but it s a non option for a diaphonemic notation We need what those without the mergers pronounce it the LOT CLOTH split is also potentially relevant here but given the subject is American from the South no less we could assume its presence see the note at the end of the Key section Nardog talk 11 32 19 March 2024 UTC Reply Nardog My apologies for not paying attention to your accurate indentation And thanks for your concise and understandable explanation Bazza 7 talk 11 35 19 March 2024 UTC Reply From what I can tell American speakers without the cot caught merger pronounce the name as ɡɔf not ɡɑf This makes sense as it corresponds to the spelling I have therefore changed the pronunciation guide to this Referencing Gauff s own pronunciation is useless as she has a PALM LOT THOUGHT merged accent so her ɑ phoneme corresponds to three separate Wikipedia diaphonemes Offa29 talk 13 32 19 March 2024 UTC Reply dd dd dd dd Distinction between ae in trap and bad edit Latest comment 19 days ago 7 comments 5 people in discussionThe latter is extended in most accents I ve heard so surely should include like in ɑː and iː I m not seeing it on the table Mac Dreamstate talk 12 21 24 February 2024 UTC Reply Mac Dreamstate Checking three reliable sources dictionary com shows traep baed Merriam Webster shows ˈtrap ˈbad OED shows trap Br traep US bad Br baed US So although the a may vary in sound between English variants the same sound is used within a variant for trap and bad Bazza 7 talk 12 50 24 February 2024 UTC ReplyWeird To me they sound as different as ɪ and iː I m not going to call into question anyone s linguistic credentials but it s like someone s missing a trick somewhere Mac Dreamstate talk 13 25 24 February 2024 UTC Reply Mac Dreamstate Someone else might want to contribute here and provide some better references I was I confess surprised by the sources I think I know what you re alluding to we might from our seats on this side of the pond respectfully call it a drawl Bazza 7 talk 14 12 24 February 2024 UTC Reply dd dd It isn t a phonemic difference A speaker s phonetic realizations might be transcribed as traep and baeːd but it s one phoneme written ae On the other hand considering only my own eastern US speech I don t see why in contrast the phonemes ɑː and iː are marked long To me the vowels in beat and bead differ in length in the same way as bat and bad so it isn t clear to me why the phoneme behind one pair would be explicitly marked long and the other one not Perhaps there are enough examples of English around the world with long vowels in both beat and bead and short vowels in both bat and bad that it makes sense Largoplazo talk 22 41 24 February 2024 UTC ReplyThere is a phonemic distinction made in some accents of English the Pronunciation of English a Bad lad split However this is not accounted for in the transcription system presumably because it is not featured in most dictionaries It is far from the only possible phonemic distinction omitted cf the horse hoarse and fir fur fern distinctions in Scottish and Irish English Offa29 talk 02 49 25 February 2024 UTC Reply dd 200 days ago 50 231 115 70 talk 12 20 18 March 2024 UTC Reply Add topic Retrieved from https en wikipedia org w index php title Help talk IPA English amp oldid 1217664677, wikipedia, wiki, book, books, library,
