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New Orleans-class cruiser

The New Orleans-class cruisers were a class of seven heavy cruisers built for the United States Navy (USN) in the 1930s.

USS New Orleans
Class overview
NameNew Orleans class
Builders
Operators United States Navy
Preceded byPortland class
Succeeded byUSS Wichita
Built14 March 1931 - 24 February 1937
In commission15 February 1934 – 10 February 1947
Planned7
Completed7
Lost3
Retired4
General characteristics
TypeHeavy cruiser
Displacement
  • 9,950 long tons (10,110 t)
  • 12,463 long tons (12,663 t) (loaded)
Length
  • 578 ft (176 m) wl
  • 588 ft 2 in (179.27 m) oa
Beam61 ft 9 in (18.82 m)
Draft19 ft 5 in (5.92 m)
Propulsion
Speed32.7 knots (60.6 km/h; 37.6 mph)
Complement708 officers and enlisted
Sensors and
processing systems
Armament
Armor
  • Belt 3–5 in (76–127 mm)
  • Deck 1.25–2.25 in (32–57 mm)
  • Turrets 1.5–8 in (38–203 mm)
  • Barbettes 5 in (127 mm) (6.5 in (165 mm) in CA-38)
  • Conning tower 5 in (127 mm)

These ships participated in the heaviest surface battles of the Pacific War. Astoria, Quincy, and Vincennes were all sunk in the Battle of Savo Island, and three others were heavily damaged in subsequent battles in the Guadalcanal campaign. Only Tuscaloosa, which spent most of the war in the Atlantic, got through the war without being damaged. Collectively, ships of the class earned 64 battle stars. The four surviving ships were laid up immediately after the end of the war, and sold for scrap in 1959.

Design edit

The New Orleans-class design was a test bed for innovations in cruiser design, and there were three distinct designs within the class.

Originally called the Astoria class, the class was renamed after USS Astoria was sunk and the surviving ships of the class underwent substantial reconstruction.

  • Design #1: New Orleans, Astoria, and Minneapolis.
  • Design #2: Tuscaloosa and San Francisco.
  • Design #3: Quincy and Vincennes.

This class was the direct ancestor for all subsequent USN gun cruisers. From them came the Brooklyn, Wichita, Cleveland, and Baltimore-class cruisers. While the Washington Naval Treaty was still being observed, new technology was implemented in the New Orleans class because the USN knew that if and when war came, they would need this knowledge to build ships (which were already in the planning stage) beyond the treaty limits. The USN came to the conclusion that no 10,000-ton cruiser could adequately perform the roles given.

Originally Tuscaloosa was the lead ship of this class, but Astoria, New Orleans and Minneapolis, laid down as Portland-class ships, were reordered to the Tuscaloosa design in 1930; Portland and Indianapolis were being built in civilian rather than Navy yards and were completed as originally designed.

Three ships of the class (Astoria, Quincy, and Vincennes) were lost in the Battle of Savo Island in 1942. Immediately following the Guadalcanal campaign the remaining ships of the class went through major overhauls to lessen top-heaviness caused by new electrical and radar systems and anti-aircraft weaponry which had been added as technology advanced. In doing so, the ships took on a new appearance, most notably in the bridge area, and became known as the New Orleans class. The four survivors were decommissioned shortly after the war ended, and scrapped in 1959–1961.

Armor edit

 
1943 ONI identification image for the New Orleans class

The New Orleans class was the last series of US cruisers completed to the limitations of the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922. As completed, the single ship Wichita class (and subsequent heavy cruisers) exceeded the 10,000-ton standard.

Design of these ships began in early 1929, based on the three preceding classes: The Pensacola, the Northampton and the Portland classes. All of the cruisers of the New Orleans class were outwardly similar but the displacement among these ships varied by some 600 tons. The Bureau of Construction and Repair authorized a contemporary 8-inch (203 mm) gun cruiser design of smaller size, but one which allocated considerably more tonnage towards protection. The New Orleans class was noteworthy for its protection. The hull was 12 feet (3.7 m) shorter than a Northampton, with a shorter armor belt that protected only the machinery and other internal spaces, allowing its thickness to be increased to 5 inches (130 mm). The machinery bulkheads were given 3.5 inches (89 mm) and the deck armor was strengthened to 2.25 inches (57 mm). For the first time in US cruisers, barbette and turret armor was sufficient to withstand 8-inch shellfire. The turrets were faced with 8 inches of armor, 2.75 inches (70 mm) on the sides and 1 inch (25 mm) on the roof. The barbettes were protected with 5 inches of armor on all ships except San Francisco, whose barbettes were fitted with 6.5 inches (170 mm) of armor.

Magazine protection was increased to 4 inches (100 mm). Magazine protection was further increased by placing them well below the waterline. Otherwise only an internal splinter belt and the armor deck protected the magazines. While this allowed an exceptional degree of armored protection for the vitals against shellfire, there was little protected hull volume, and the deep magazines were more exposed to underwater damage (New Orleans learned this the hard way at the Battle of Tassafaronga). Protection represented approximately 15% of normal displacement as opposed to the only 5.6% in the Pensacolas and 6% in the Northampton and Portland classes. Unfortunately, fuel bunkerage had to be reduced, which resulted in a smaller operational range.

Armament edit

The main armament on the class centered on nine 8 in/55 caliber Mark 14 guns (Mark 9 guns until replaced in World War II), mounted in triple turrets. New Orleans was fitted with Mark 14 Mod 0 guns, Minneapolis with the Mark 15 Mod 1 guns and the remaining ships of the class received Mark 12 Mod 0 guns. The turret face configurations were also different with the Mark 14 guns being housed in rounded face turrets and the Mark 12 and 15 guns in a flat faced turret. The 8 in guns had a range of 31,860 yards (29,130 m) with a muzzle velocity of 2,800 feet per second (853 m/s). The armor-piercing round weighed 260 pounds (118 kg) and could penetrate five inches of armor plating at 19,500 yards (17,830 m).

Secondary armament for the class consisted of eight 5 in/25 caliber dual purpose guns, which could be used against surface and aerial targets, as well as .50 caliber water-cooled machine guns to augment the 5 in guns. When the US entered the war in December 1941, the New Orleans class and other "Treaty" cruisers were rushed into battle with little modification and lacking in air defense. The Japanese proved at Pearl Harbor and with the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse off Malaya that this war would be decided with air power. As soon as available, the quadruple 1.1 in guns and the Swiss-designed 20 mm Oerlikon cannon (which would replace the .50 caliber guns) were fitted, as well as early radar units and fire control directors. As the war progressed, developments in radar abilities gave the Allies an increasingly decisive advantage over the enemy. In late 1942, the arrival of the 40 mm Bofors (in twin and quadruple mountings), replaced the quadruple 1.1-inch autocannons, which had proved ineffective.

By late 1945, even after the removal of many non-essential items (half of their spotter planes as well as a crane and a catapult became non-essential due to advances in radar) the ships became dangerously over weight because of new weaponry and electrical and radar equipment. The threat from the air was so intense this condition had to be tolerated.

Appearance and performance edit

Outwardly, the New Orleans ships had a distinctive appearance and were considered very good-looking vessels, though the 1942–43 refits of the surviving ships changed the appearance substantially. The forward superstructure had the bridge wings cut back, and all of the large size windows were plated in with just a few port holes taking their place. The open bridge above the wheel house was enlarged by 100 percent by extending it forward. In addition several gun tubs were created for the 40 mm Bofors mounts both around the main mast, and aft. The forecastle deck extended back to the second funnel and the main superstructure was constructed without the ungainly tripod mast seen on the previous cruisers. The bow was a raked type, similar to those of British cruisers. The two funnels were situated closer together with a large search light tower in between. Aircraft handling facilities were moved further aft and a larger second conning station erected above the hangar. A single mainmast was erected there, between two huge pedestal cranes which handled both spotter planes and small craft. The main 8-inch turrets, although armored, were actually smaller with a more effective angular faceplate. By enlarging the forecastle deck, the secondary battery of 5-inch guns were mounted closer together, facilitating a more efficient ammunition delivery.

Power was provided by eight Babcock & Wilcox steam boilers that produced 107,000 hp (79,800 kW) for the four Westinghouse gearing steam turbines. The turbines were shafted to four screws, giving this class a rated speed of 32.75 knots (60.7 km/h). The cruisers' range – using 2,195 long tons (2,230 t) of bunker oil – was approximately 9,000 nautical miles (16,670 km) at 10 knots (19 km/h)[3] or 5,280 nautical miles (9,779 km) at 20 knots (37 km/h).[4] Their range could be extended by refueling from an oiler or another ship fitted to transfer oil while underway.

The New Orleans cruisers performed peacetime exercises well with no serious shortcomings being found. While many changes were implemented to improve their performance and especially their protection, the 10,000-ton limit of the Washington Naval Treaty was not exceeded. The new cruisers were considered successful in their own right but could not be considered equal to some foreign contemporaries, which were often considerably larger.

Ships in class edit

Construction data
Ship name Hull no. Builder Laid down Launched Commission Decommission Fate
New Orleans CA-32 New York Navy Yard 14 March 1931 12 April 1933 15 February 1934 10 February 1947 Struck 1 March 1959; Sold for scrap; 22 September 1959
Astoria CA-34 Puget Sound Naval Shipyard 1 September 1930 16 December 1933 28 April 1934 Sunk, Battle of Savo Island 9 August 1942
Minneapolis CA-36 Philadelphia Navy Yard 27 June 1931 6 September 1933 19 May 1934 10 February 1947 Struck 1 March 1959; Sold for scrap, 14 August 1959
Tuscaloosa CA-37 New York Shipbuilding Corporation, Camden, New Jersey 3 September 1931 15 November 1933 17 August 1934 13 February 1946 Struck 1 March 1959; Sold for scrap, 25 June 1959
San Francisco CA-38 Mare Island Navy Yard 9 September 1931 9 March 1933 10 February 1934 10 February 1946 Struck 1 March 1959; Sold for scrap, 9 September 1959
Quincy CA-39 Bethlehem Steel Corporation, Fore River Shipyard, Quincy, Massachusetts 15 November 1933 19 June 1935 9 June 1936 Sunk, Battle of Savo Island 9 August 1942
Vincennes CA-44 2 January 1934 21 May 1936 24 February 1937 Sunk, Battle of Savo Island 9 August 1942

World War II edit

For almost four years, the ships of the New Orleans class were assigned to the most urgent of front line duties, becoming involved in much deadly action. Astoria, Quincy and Vincennes were sunk in the Battle of Savo Island, 8–9 Aug 1942. Although three of their number were lost, the ships proved to be well designed. New Orleans, Minneapolis and San Francisco were also seriously damaged in early war engagements in the Pacific. These engagements included the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, in which San Francisco engaged enemy ships at point blank range, and the Battle of Tassafaronga where Minneapolis and New Orleans took heavy damage and losses from Long Lance torpedoes. Damage control work and skillful seamanship kept these ships afloat to continue to fight through the end of the war.

New Orleans-class cruisers were found at every major naval skirmish of World War II in the Pacific despite the fact there were only four of the seven units remaining after the first year of war. They were some of the most used and hardest fought ships of the US Navy during the war. Three ships of this class were among the most decorated US ships of World War II. San Francisco earned[5] 17 Battle Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation, New Orleans earned[6] 17 Battle Stars, and Minneapolis earned[5] 17 Battle Stars as well. As a class, they earned a total of 64 Battle Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation.[5]

See also edit

References edit

  1. ^ Friedman N. U. S. Cruisers: An Illustrated Design History., 1984, p. 474
  2. ^ Fahey 1941 p. 9
  3. ^ Steve Wiper. USS Minneapolis CA-36. (1997) p. 56
  4. ^ Baker, A. D., Friedman N. U. S. Cruisers: An Illustrated Design History., 1984, p. 474
  5. ^ a b c Wiper, Steve (2000). New Orleans Class Cruisers. Tucson, Az: Classic Warships Publishing. p. 58.
  6. ^ Brown, Herbert C. (2001). Hell at Tassafaronga. Kearney, NE: Morris Publishing. p. 199.

External links edit

  • Global Security.org – New Orleans class cruiser
  • Global Security.org – New Orleans class cruiser specifications

orleans, class, cruiser, this, article, about, cruisers, built, 1930s, class, protected, cruisers, acquired, 1890s, 1896, this, article, needs, additional, citations, verification, please, help, improve, this, article, adding, citations, reliable, sources, uns. This article is about the cruisers built in the 1930s For the class of protected cruisers acquired in the 1890s see New Orleans class cruiser 1896 This article needs additional citations for verification Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources Unsourced material may be challenged and removed Find sources New Orleans class cruiser news newspapers books scholar JSTOR December 2007 Learn how and when to remove this message The New Orleans class cruisers were a class of seven heavy cruisers built for the United States Navy USN in the 1930s USS New OrleansClass overview NameNew Orleans class BuildersBethlehem Fore River MA 2 Brooklyn Navy Yard NY 1 Puget Sound Navy Yard WA 1 Philadelphia Navy Yard PA 1 New York Shipbuilding NJ 1 Mare Island Navy Yard CA 1 OperatorsUnited States Navy Preceded byPortland class Succeeded byUSS Wichita Built14 March 1931 24 February 1937 In commission15 February 1934 10 February 1947 Planned7 Completed7 Lost3 Retired4 General characteristics TypeHeavy cruiser Displacement9 950 long tons 10 110 t 12 463 long tons 12 663 t loaded Length578 ft 176 m wl 588 ft 2 in 179 27 m oa Beam61 ft 9 in 18 82 m Draft19 ft 5 in 5 92 m Propulsion4 Parsons Westinghouse geared turbines 8 Babcock amp Wilcox boilers 4 screws 107 000 hp 79 800 kW Speed32 7 knots 60 6 km h 37 6 mph Complement708 officers and enlisted Sensors and processing systemsMk31 GFCS 8in main Mk33 GFCS 5in secondary 1 Armament9 8 inch 55 caliber guns 8 5 inch 25 caliber guns 2 8 50 caliber machine guns ArmorBelt 3 5 in 76 127 mm Deck 1 25 2 25 in 32 57 mm Turrets 1 5 8 in 38 203 mm Barbettes 5 in 127 mm 6 5 in 165 mm in CA 38 Conning tower 5 in 127 mm These ships participated in the heaviest surface battles of the Pacific War Astoria Quincy and Vincennes were all sunk in the Battle of Savo Island and three others were heavily damaged in subsequent battles in the Guadalcanal campaign Only Tuscaloosa which spent most of the war in the Atlantic got through the war without being damaged Collectively ships of the class earned 64 battle stars The four surviving ships were laid up immediately after the end of the war and sold for scrap in 1959 Contents 1 Design 2 Armor 3 Armament 4 Appearance and performance 5 Ships in class 6 World War II 7 See also 8 References 9 External linksDesign editThe New Orleans class design was a test bed for innovations in cruiser design and there were three distinct designs within the class Originally called the Astoria class the class was renamed after USS Astoria was sunk and the surviving ships of the class underwent substantial reconstruction Design 1 New Orleans Astoria and Minneapolis Design 2 Tuscaloosa and San Francisco Design 3 Quincy and Vincennes This class was the direct ancestor for all subsequent USN gun cruisers From them came the Brooklyn Wichita Cleveland and Baltimore class cruisers While the Washington Naval Treaty was still being observed new technology was implemented in the New Orleans class because the USN knew that if and when war came they would need this knowledge to build ships which were already in the planning stage beyond the treaty limits The USN came to the conclusion that no 10 000 ton cruiser could adequately perform the roles given Originally Tuscaloosa was the lead ship of this class but Astoria New Orleans and Minneapolis laid down as Portland class ships were reordered to the Tuscaloosa design in 1930 Portland and Indianapolis were being built in civilian rather than Navy yards and were completed as originally designed Three ships of the class Astoria Quincy and Vincennes were lost in the Battle of Savo Island in 1942 Immediately following the Guadalcanal campaign the remaining ships of the class went through major overhauls to lessen top heaviness caused by new electrical and radar systems and anti aircraft weaponry which had been added as technology advanced In doing so the ships took on a new appearance most notably in the bridge area and became known as the New Orleans class The four survivors were decommissioned shortly after the war ended and scrapped in 1959 1961 Armor edit nbsp 1943 ONI identification image for the New Orleans class The New Orleans class was the last series of US cruisers completed to the limitations of the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 As completed the single ship Wichita class and subsequent heavy cruisers exceeded the 10 000 ton standard Design of these ships began in early 1929 based on the three preceding classes The Pensacola the Northampton and the Portland classes All of the cruisers of the New Orleans class were outwardly similar but the displacement among these ships varied by some 600 tons The Bureau of Construction and Repair authorized a contemporary 8 inch 203 mm gun cruiser design of smaller size but one which allocated considerably more tonnage towards protection The New Orleans class was noteworthy for its protection The hull was 12 feet 3 7 m shorter than a Northampton with a shorter armor belt that protected only the machinery and other internal spaces allowing its thickness to be increased to 5 inches 130 mm The machinery bulkheads were given 3 5 inches 89 mm and the deck armor was strengthened to 2 25 inches 57 mm For the first time in US cruisers barbette and turret armor was sufficient to withstand 8 inch shellfire The turrets were faced with 8 inches of armor 2 75 inches 70 mm on the sides and 1 inch 25 mm on the roof The barbettes were protected with 5 inches of armor on all ships except San Francisco whose barbettes were fitted with 6 5 inches 170 mm of armor Magazine protection was increased to 4 inches 100 mm Magazine protection was further increased by placing them well below the waterline Otherwise only an internal splinter belt and the armor deck protected the magazines While this allowed an exceptional degree of armored protection for the vitals against shellfire there was little protected hull volume and the deep magazines were more exposed to underwater damage New Orleans learned this the hard way at the Battle of Tassafaronga Protection represented approximately 15 of normal displacement as opposed to the only 5 6 in the Pensacolas and 6 in the Northampton and Portland classes Unfortunately fuel bunkerage had to be reduced which resulted in a smaller operational range Armament editThe main armament on the class centered on nine 8 in 55 caliber Mark 14 guns Mark 9 guns until replaced in World War II mounted in triple turrets New Orleans was fitted with Mark 14 Mod 0 guns Minneapolis with the Mark 15 Mod 1 guns and the remaining ships of the class received Mark 12 Mod 0 guns The turret face configurations were also different with the Mark 14 guns being housed in rounded face turrets and the Mark 12 and 15 guns in a flat faced turret The 8 in guns had a range of 31 860 yards 29 130 m with a muzzle velocity of 2 800 feet per second 853 m s The armor piercing round weighed 260 pounds 118 kg and could penetrate five inches of armor plating at 19 500 yards 17 830 m Secondary armament for the class consisted of eight 5 in 25 caliber dual purpose guns which could be used against surface and aerial targets as well as 50 caliber water cooled machine guns to augment the 5 in guns When the US entered the war in December 1941 the New Orleans class and other Treaty cruisers were rushed into battle with little modification and lacking in air defense The Japanese proved at Pearl Harbor and with the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse off Malaya that this war would be decided with air power As soon as available the quadruple 1 1 in guns and the Swiss designed 20 mm Oerlikon cannon which would replace the 50 caliber guns were fitted as well as early radar units and fire control directors As the war progressed developments in radar abilities gave the Allies an increasingly decisive advantage over the enemy In late 1942 the arrival of the 40 mm Bofors in twin and quadruple mountings replaced the quadruple 1 1 inch autocannons which had proved ineffective By late 1945 even after the removal of many non essential items half of their spotter planes as well as a crane and a catapult became non essential due to advances in radar the ships became dangerously over weight because of new weaponry and electrical and radar equipment The threat from the air was so intense this condition had to be tolerated Appearance and performance editOutwardly the New Orleans ships had a distinctive appearance and were considered very good looking vessels though the 1942 43 refits of the surviving ships changed the appearance substantially The forward superstructure had the bridge wings cut back and all of the large size windows were plated in with just a few port holes taking their place The open bridge above the wheel house was enlarged by 100 percent by extending it forward In addition several gun tubs were created for the 40 mm Bofors mounts both around the main mast and aft The forecastle deck extended back to the second funnel and the main superstructure was constructed without the ungainly tripod mast seen on the previous cruisers The bow was a raked type similar to those of British cruisers The two funnels were situated closer together with a large search light tower in between Aircraft handling facilities were moved further aft and a larger second conning station erected above the hangar A single mainmast was erected there between two huge pedestal cranes which handled both spotter planes and small craft The main 8 inch turrets although armored were actually smaller with a more effective angular faceplate By enlarging the forecastle deck the secondary battery of 5 inch guns were mounted closer together facilitating a more efficient ammunition delivery Power was provided by eight Babcock amp Wilcox steam boilers that produced 107 000 hp 79 800 kW for the four Westinghouse gearing steam turbines The turbines were shafted to four screws giving this class a rated speed of 32 75 knots 60 7 km h The cruisers range using 2 195 long tons 2 230 t of bunker oil was approximately 9 000 nautical miles 16 670 km at 10 knots 19 km h 3 or 5 280 nautical miles 9 779 km at 20 knots 37 km h 4 Their range could be extended by refueling from an oiler or another ship fitted to transfer oil while underway The New Orleans cruisers performed peacetime exercises well with no serious shortcomings being found While many changes were implemented to improve their performance and especially their protection the 10 000 ton limit of the Washington Naval Treaty was not exceeded The new cruisers were considered successful in their own right but could not be considered equal to some foreign contemporaries which were often considerably larger Ships in class editConstruction data Ship name Hull no Builder Laid down Launched Commission Decommission Fate New Orleans CA 32 New York Navy Yard 14 March 1931 12 April 1933 15 February 1934 10 February 1947 Struck 1 March 1959 Sold for scrap 22 September 1959 Astoria CA 34 Puget Sound Naval Shipyard 1 September 1930 16 December 1933 28 April 1934 Sunk Battle of Savo Island 9 August 1942 Minneapolis CA 36 Philadelphia Navy Yard 27 June 1931 6 September 1933 19 May 1934 10 February 1947 Struck 1 March 1959 Sold for scrap 14 August 1959 Tuscaloosa CA 37 New York Shipbuilding Corporation Camden New Jersey 3 September 1931 15 November 1933 17 August 1934 13 February 1946 Struck 1 March 1959 Sold for scrap 25 June 1959 San Francisco CA 38 Mare Island Navy Yard 9 September 1931 9 March 1933 10 February 1934 10 February 1946 Struck 1 March 1959 Sold for scrap 9 September 1959 Quincy CA 39 Bethlehem Steel Corporation Fore River Shipyard Quincy Massachusetts 15 November 1933 19 June 1935 9 June 1936 Sunk Battle of Savo Island 9 August 1942 Vincennes CA 44 2 January 1934 21 May 1936 24 February 1937 Sunk Battle of Savo Island 9 August 1942World War II editFor almost four years the ships of the New Orleans class were assigned to the most urgent of front line duties becoming involved in much deadly action Astoria Quincy and Vincennes were sunk in the Battle of Savo Island 8 9 Aug 1942 Although three of their number were lost the ships proved to be well designed New Orleans Minneapolis and San Francisco were also seriously damaged in early war engagements in the Pacific These engagements included the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in which San Francisco engaged enemy ships at point blank range and the Battle of Tassafaronga where Minneapolis and New Orleans took heavy damage and losses from Long Lance torpedoes Damage control work and skillful seamanship kept these ships afloat to continue to fight through the end of the war New Orleans class cruisers were found at every major naval skirmish of World War II in the Pacific despite the fact there were only four of the seven units remaining after the first year of war They were some of the most used and hardest fought ships of the US Navy during the war Three ships of this class were among the most decorated US ships of World War II San Francisco earned 5 17 Battle Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation New Orleans earned 6 17 Battle Stars and Minneapolis earned 5 17 Battle Stars as well As a class they earned a total of 64 Battle Stars and a Presidential Unit Citation 5 See also editNew Orleans class cruiser 1896 List of cruisers of the United States NavyReferences edit Friedman N U S Cruisers An Illustrated Design History 1984 p 474 Fahey 1941 p 9 Steve Wiper USS Minneapolis CA 36 1997 p 56 Baker A D Friedman N U S Cruisers An Illustrated Design History 1984 p 474 a b c Wiper Steve 2000 New Orleans Class Cruisers Tucson Az Classic Warships Publishing p 58 Brown Herbert C 2001 Hell at Tassafaronga Kearney NE Morris Publishing p 199 External links edit nbsp Wikimedia Commons has media related to New Orleans class cruiser Global Security org New Orleans class cruiser Global Security org New Orleans class cruiser specifications Retrieved from https en wikipedia org w index php title New Orleans class cruiser amp oldid 1164302405, wikipedia, wiki, book, books, library,

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